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Guilty of being QWOC: The San Antonio Four on being wrongly accused

Southwest of Salem: The Story of the San Antonio Four looks at the injustice faced by four lesbian Latina friends: Elizabeth “Liz” Ramirez, Kristie Mayhugh, Cassandra “Cassie” Rivera and Anna Vasquez. They were tried in the late ’90s and fell victims to the “satanic panic” child sexual assault theory that had become a popular attack on gay individuals in the American legal system.

The documentary about their story is now hitting film festivals, several of which the women will attend. Ahead of the film’s screening at Frameline in San Francisco, we spoke with all four women about life before, during and after imprisonment, the lack of support from their local LGBT community, the homophobic tactics used during their trials and more.

Elizabeth Ramirez, Cassandra Rivera, Anna Vasquez and Kristie MayhughPhoto by Robin Marchant/Getty Images for Tribeca Film Festival

AfterEllen.com: You were all really young when this happened. What were your dreams for the future before your arrests?

Anna Vasquez: In 1993 I had just graduated from high school. Shortly after, I’m saying like two weeks or so, I had started college at San Antonio College. My dream was to get into the medical profession. But unfortunately the accusations came about in 1994.

Cassandra Rivera: I always wanted to be a mechanic. When all this happened, I was working at AutoZone. I had two small children and they were about eight and nine when I left them behind. But my dream was to raise my kids.

Kristie Mayhugh: I was taking a break from school because I had gone to college like right after I graduated. Actually, four days after I graduated I was in college. I was actually going to school to be a veterinarian. That was my dream. But while I was taking a break, these accusations came up.

Elizabeth Ramirez: During the time of the accusations, I was 10 weeks pregnant. I wanted to raise my son.

AE: From the moment of your arrests up until your trials began, was there a part of you that thought you would be found guilty? What were your lawyers telling you during this time?

CR: Oh yeah, we were all very scared because one of the things that they told us was we would never win going against children. Our attorneys even wanted us to take a plea bargain because they said that no matter what, the outcome wasn’t going to be good. But we ended up firing our attorneys and hiring other attorneys that wanted to fight for us, because we weren’t just going to take a plea bargain. But yes, we were scared. There was doubt. I mean, we knew we were innocent. The second set of attorneys that we had, they felt like we were going to be found innocent—they didn’t think that we were going to be taken away. But unfortunately, we were.

ER: Unfortunately for me, my attorney that I had was a civil attorney. He kept telling me that there was no way that they would convict me. And so I believed him. He said, “They didn’t have any evidence on you. There’s nothing that happened. You’ll be fine.” I was tried before all the other ladies were and I pretty much kind of just did everything by myself. So I really wasn’t aware of the law or attorneys. I had a civil attorney doing a criminal case. That tells you enough. I didn’t have anything on my side as far as an expert or witness or anything at all.

AV: The attorneys did tell us from the very beginning that most people are not going to go against children, especially for accusations such as this. But we did come across attorneys that were going to fight, or so we thought. We thought that they did a good job, back then. But knowing what we know now, dealing with Mike [Ware] and the Innocence Project of Texas, we were not given any kind of expert to refute what the pediatrician was saying. Unfortunately, the way that really the law works is that you’re guilty until proven innocent. It’s not supposed to work like that but unfortunately, it does.

KM: My attorney said it wasn’t a really good case—the charges, the accusations—but he was going to do what I wanted to do, which was fight. I didn’t want to take a plea bargain. I was innocent. I felt like taking a plea bargain was admitting guilt. I was never going to admit to this crime. I think it was just always really a fear, being found guilty. I don’t think it really set into reality until in court they said you were guilty. I always thought that you told the truth, the truth would prevail and we would be found innocent. But that’s not what happened.

AE: While on trial, how aware were each of you of homophobic tactics being used against you?

AV: In the trial it was myself, Cassie and Kristie that were sent to trial together. It’s all a blur to me. It’s like I blacked it out. Going back and reading over the transcripts and stuff like that, it brings back things to me. But it’s almost like I don’t even remember. It’s the weirdest thing. But yes, there was homophobia.

CR: At ours, when we did jury selection, I remember our attorneys said that our sexual preference wasn’t going to be brought up for any type of reason. But before the trial had even began and they had to pick a jury, they asked—I don’t even remember how many people were there before they selected the 12, but it was a courtroom full of people. They were like, “If you have a problem with gays or lesbians or whatever it is, then you need to say something now.” That just implanted something in everybody’s head I’m sure. And then people raised their hands—they didn’t want to be there. It was a mess.

ER: It played a great part in mine because I had a preacher and a preacher’s wife. I think it was the preacher that was the foreman. And so at the beginning when we were selecting the jury, there were a lot of jurors that didn’t even want to participate. One of the things that they did say was that I was gay. And when they asked the preacher and the preacher’s wife if they were okay with it, they were like, “Yes.” But right then and there, I knew that there was prejudice. There was no way that they were going to be fair in my trial. It was always, “Well you had your lover,” and “You were a homosexual.” And [the prosecutor] just kind of badgered me during the whole questioning when I was on the stand.

KM: I can’t really remember a whole lot from the trial, but I do remember from the doctor, Nancy Kellogg. It was the “homosexual satanic ritual” thing with the kids and us. It was brought up there and that was brought up in court. It did play a big part and I think influenced them a lot.

AE: Liz, you mentioned in the film that you felt incredibly guilty about how the other women’s fates were tied to you. Can you speak to that, and can you tell me if today you feel differently?

ER: Cass had two children, Kristie wanted a future as a veterinarian, Anna—you know, they all had plans in their lives. And all of that was taken away because they were my friends. They were at the wrong place at the wrong time. I think for all these years that we’ve been fighting this case, for me that’s what my strength comes from, is to prove that nothing ever happened. Everyday that I get up, I pray so hard. Because it’s not over yet. And I don’t think I’ll ever be able to forgive myself for the situation of my family and everything for everything that they’ve been through. And today, I still feel the same way because, even though they’re home, they’re still not free. Anna has to go through so much with being a sex offender and registering as a sex offender. Kristie can’t even rent a place or do anything because of the charges. And Cassie still has her children and they’ve grown—she’s got grandchildren. They’ve all been away from their family. We’ve lost family members over the years. They’ve suffered such a great deal all these years and it was all only because of their association with me. Nothing else. So I don’t think that I’ll ever be at peace or free from it all until they’re finally cleared. Maybe then I might have a sense of peace, but I can’t tell you that right now.

And today, I still feel the same way because, even though they’re home, they’re still not free. Anna has to go through so much with being a sex offender and registering as a sex offender. Kristie can’t even rent a place or do anything because of the charges. And Cassie still has her children, and they’ve grown—she’s got grandchildren. They’ve all been away from their family. We’ve lost family members over the years. They’ve suffered such a great deal all these years, and it was all only because of their association with me. Nothing else. So I don’t think that I’ll ever be at peace or free from it all until they’re finally cleared. Maybe then I might have a sense of peace, but I can’t tell you that right now.

AE: The film doesn’t show the rest of you to harbor any resentment towards Liz. Where does that kind of grace come from? Is it just that you see yourselves as being in this together?

CR: All four of us, we started out as very good friends. We had a very strong bond back then. We had a lot of faith. We knew that this was not Liz’s fault. She didn’t put these people up to doing what they did to us. We just had to pray and we just had to believe that everything was going to be all right. We all knew that eventually the truth would set us free. So as far as blaming anybody or anything, it’s not Liz that we feel anything like that for. She’s our friend. We were there for her. We know that she feels that way and sometimes I really wish she wouldn’t because she needs peace just as much as all of us do.

AV: It was by the grace of God that we are here today and with such strength. It wasn’t Liz’s fault at all. She had nothing to do with that. It just unfortunately happened to us. She’s not alone. It’s all of us. We’re all in this together and not one of us is at fault. I can honestly tell you that if I had ever thought that one of the others could have done something like that I would have spoken up a long time ago. It’s just not like that. We grew up together. We got to know each other. We share a bond—unfortunately it is this bond that connects us all together.

KM: It’s not Liz’s fault. I don’t blame nobody, period. It’s nobody’s fault. It happened, we’re fighting it, we’re sticking together. I just think it’s our faith, our faith in God, that has kept us strong.

AE: While in jail, were there periods where you thought your cases were going nowhere?

ER: When I was at the county in ’97 when I got my time, I want to say a month after I was there, I had written a little story or things about my situation and I wrote I think about 50 letters out to people to get some help. Private investigators, people for like medical evidence. I never got a response from any of them. In ’98, I continued to just write people and write people. I wrote the Innocence Project several times. I got denied by them several times. But I just never gave up. Throughout the years I just continued and continued and continued. We needed that voice. There was nothing we could do inside.

AV: There was many lows. Cassie and I were in a relationship and were raising two children and we always had this case hanging over our heads. It was very difficult to just live life knowing that tomorrow wasn’t promised. And when we got convicted and we were released on appellant bonds, Cassie and Kristie and I started doing our own little investigation because we would try and reach out to people and nobody really would pay attention. So we were finally put in contact with a Dan Castor, who was very familiar with the gay community back then. He helped us, but unfortunately it was like a few weeks before we were to turn ourselves in. That’s why in the film I say we reached out to them a little too late.

When everybody got out and we started talking, we all find out that we were all writing people to hear us. Oprah and whoever—it didn’t matter. And we never got any responses. I too wrote the Innocence Project and they always denied me because there was no DNA that could be proven and there was no new evidence. So yes, for many, many, many years we didn’t have any help. I thought I would have to serve the entire sentence.

CR: It was heartbreaking. There were times where we sat there and we didn’t know what to think. We wanted to hear some type of good news or something. When the Innocence Project stepped in, when Michael Ware first came to see us, was probably when I had that first bright shinning gleam of hope in my life again.

KM: We tried while we were out here—telethons. It was a lot of letdowns. You get your hopes up and then you don’t get no response, or you get a little bit of help and it doesn’t continue.

I think a lot of hope too was hearing other cases, other innocent people, seeing their cases overturned and winning and getting out, even if it was after 15, 20, 30 years. It still gave me hope that that could happen to us.

AE: Do you feel that the LGBT community was and continues to be there for you through this battle?

AV: We are not getting any support from the LGBT community here in San Antonio. But at large, yes, very much so. New York, Portland—places that we have gone to so far where we have travelled have been completely behind us. I can only speculate that maybe it’s because of the charges, or maybe it’s because San Antonio is still a conservative city. But I really don’t see LGBTQ community here, period. Now individuals, Daniela, let me tell you, they’re great. We do meet individual gay people, gay couples, that yes, they are behind us. I can’t say of any community organization that is behind us.

ER: When I went to trial in ’97 it was like the LGBT community was not even involved. I had like no association with anything or anyone at all. I pretty much was just on my own. I was by myself. I was tried alone, and I had nobody.

AE: Were you surprised by that at all? Anna mentioned organizations and that sucks, to be frank, that the organizations aren’t front and center. But Toronto, for example, has a very vibrant activist community so it doesn’t have to be an organization—people from the community will come out in support, oftentimes in great numbers, when there’s an injustice done to someone else who is queer. And of course this is the ’90s and it’s San Antonio, but you didn’t see a contingent of LGBT people during your trials or when you were let out? Is that what’s being said?

AV: That’s exactly what we’re saying. The people that were there were family and friends and supporters. And I’m not talking about gay supporters. I am talking about heterosexuals that have been with us ever since we were in prison.

AE: I’m not trying to stoke controversy, but does that at all hurt you? One thing I have to keep in context is that it’s easy for me to say, because I’m from Toronto, that if the same thing happened to me, I would be shocked and I would be hurt if the community didn’t come out in support of me. Is it something you can accept because it’s San Antonio? Keep in mind that it’s also 2016 in San Antonio.

CR: Being that it is 2016—back then, I didn’t even know if the community existed. We didn’t see a lot of it. We had a couple of gay supporters. We spoke at gay Pride. We still didn’t receive a lot of support as far as that went. But now in 2016, I think that we would expect a little bit more.

AV: It’s very disappointing, it’s very hurtful, that we don’t have the community behind us. And not just for us. I don’t see it here. I don’t see it when gay issues come up, or there’s a gay bashing—because it still happens. I just don’t see anybody raising hell for an injustice when there should be. It is very hurtful because here we are, fighting for our lives, in San Antonio, and we don’t have the San Antonio community behind us.

ER: Even now, I’m trying to reach out to someone to help, just to get involved. Just to say that we have an organization behind us. Maybe it is the charges. I don’t know. But I would like to know.

KM: There’s really just no support from the gay community here in San Antonio. I don’t know if it would be different if we were in another city. But it’s sad. It seems like you would have your people behind you, helping you, but we don’t have that here. We would like the support and the help.

AE: That’s upsetting. I would now like to talk about something positive, which is to ask you what was it like to receive the news that Stephanie Limon, your niece Liz, was recanting her confession, and that the pediatrician on the case was also taking back her findings?

AV: The way I felt about the recantation, it was, “Thank God that she finally spoke up.” It was something that I wasn’t thinking would ever happen, but it was a blessing nonetheless. And when the pediatrician, when she retracted her statement, that made me feel like, “See? I told you. I told you that this never happened.”

CR: It was like a breath of fresh air, like we had been given some kind of hope once again. Like I said before, we knew the truth would set us free eventually, and that was our chance to show everybody. Because people don’t know what to think of people that are accused of crimes like ours. But we were innocent and we were going to die proving it. We were finally getting our moment to actually show the public and everybody else that there was no possible way that we had done anything like that.

ER: I knew the confessional would be great, but whenever they told us about the affidavit, then I was like, “Wow. Now we can have something more than just a confession.” That’s when I finally felt the hope.

KM: When I was told about all that, I guess I had like a sense of peace. To actually hear that she came forward and said that, it was like a relief off my shoulders. We had been waiting so long for that moment.

AE: What’s life like for each of you right now?

CR: It’s still kind of difficult because of all the stipulations that we have, everything that we still have to report. We still have to get permission to travel. But as far as that, I have my kids back in my life. We’re building our relationship. We’re having good times. We’re making new memories because so many were stolen from us. We’re all working. As far as that goes, that’s where I’m at right now.

AV: I am working in a factory—a tortilla factory. It’s not my dream job, but it is a job. I’m grateful for what we do have now, which is being outside of prison. But Daniela, make no mistake, we are still, what I like to say is that we are still in a prison without bars. Nonetheless, I am happy where I am now. But still we have this over our shoulders.

ER: I’m really grateful because I didn’t think I would be home until I was like 62-years-old. Because I knew I was going to have to do all my time because I was never going to admit to the crime. I have a 37 and a half-year sentence. For me, personally, it’s like I can’t really go on with my life because I hesitate on making decisions and doing things in my life. I still have a long ways to go. It’s very difficult for me. I’m grateful. I spend time with my son. As a matter of fact, he’s fixing to leave for the Marines. I’ve only been home for three years and here he’s leaving me again. I’m trying to buy a home. I just got a new vehicle. I’m trying to build a life, but at the same time I have that fear that I do that and then I might leave again. And then what?

KM: I’m very grateful that we’re all out and no longer in prison. I try to live life—going on with my life and enjoy things that I’ve missed out on all these years. But it is difficult. You still have this hanging over your head. You don’t know what’s going to happen, but you have that fear. We’re not totally free.

AE: Any final comments?

AV: Mike Ware and the Innocence Project of Texas have been a tremendous help. I would like to ask on their behalf for them to continue to receive donations. If people want to donate to us girls, please donate to the Innocence Project of Texas so that they can continue to help people that are innocent and in prison still. And that, in our way, is giving back because they’ve done so much for us.

All four women are still looking for exoneration and their case currently stands before the court. Whatever the court’s decision, the district attorney of San Antonio can still choose to retry the case. To help stop this from happening, visit SouthwestOfSalem.com and access the “Act Now” button to find out how you can call, email and use social media to help the women.

Southwest of Salem: The Story of the San Antonio Four plays at Frameline in San Francisco on June 23 and at Outfest in Los Angeles on July 15. Visit the movie’s website for news on future screenings.

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